Feedback regarding Cup System?

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Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:30 pm

Feel free to post your opinions in the Season 17/10/2 cup system implementation for the top divisions clans.
Positive or negative, we would like to have your opinions. Please keep them constructive!
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SevenofNine
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Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:41 pm

Generally I think the cup system is an idea that brings alot of potencial into the league.

But I also feel as if that potential was pretty much wasted this season.

The last matches were played way too far behind the last division matches. Maybe only the finals should be played after the last division match week, so the cup does not "delay" the season end for everyone else too much.

Also it would have needed alot more coverage and news regarding the cup in my opinion. Most of the finals went unnoticed and only the TS quarterfinal can be found on UZ's youtube channel. That's just my view as someone who was uninvolved in these events. To come back to my original post I can sum it up by saying: I very much like the idea, but the execution was unsatisfying. But after all it was the first try so it's far from disaster.

Kind regards
Hummel

HummelHeXer
Newbie
Newbie
 

Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:13 pm

I too like the cup system, but I think it ended up a bit chaotic in the end, because of teams not playing their matches.

So, here are my ideas:


Double elimination system:

Right now, half of the teams only play 3 matches if every opponent shows up. If someone drops out, they might only get to play 2 matches in the whole season. I just checked and the signups opened on January 21st for the current season. That was nearly 3 months ago, and 2 (or 3) official cw in 3 months is not the most motivational thing ever.
A double elimination system would provide the teams with more opportunity for playing matches and even if they get eliminated in the first round of the lower bracket of the playoffs, they still had at least 2 weeks (publishing the playoff tree and first matchweek) to be in an actual tournament and spend their time practicing against their next opponent, instead of getting eliminated early and just playing pcw-s for months. Also, teams would be kept alive longer, since the playoff starts after the group stages.

To write an example:

Current system:

Team plays 3 matches in the first 3 weeks (or only 2 depending on dropouts and points), they don't make it to the playoffs so they are out of the tournament. No hope for playing again for months

Double elimination:

Teams are playing in the group stages for 3 week, wait a week for the playoff tree, than another week for scheduling and playing their first match. This is already 5 weeks at least, before the first teams get eliminated.

tl;dr: double elimination system, first 2 of the group upper bracket, bottom 2, lower bracket. Winner of the upper bracket starts the final with some kind of advantage (maybe finals in a bo5 format and they start with 1 map advantage, or they can choose the maps...)

I would also like to add, that since the 2 brackets would run in parallel, this system would only add 1 extra week to the season compared to the current system.
So it would look like this: 3 matchweek for the group stages, 1 week for publishing the playoff tree and 4 matchweek for the playoffs for a total of 8 weeks, which is just 1 week longer then the season it the lower divisions.



Additional changes:

- Admin presence during the matches (maybe only after the first or second round of the playoff stages) so important matches won't go unnoticed (no gtv / stream).

- Tighter schedule control: if a team can't play their match in time they get replaced by a previously eliminated team. The current situation is ridiculous with matches not played for weeks.

- No player changes after the group stages. No transfers, no players who never played on UZ, nothing. You keep the roster you had at the end of the group stages.

- Maybe a bit better news management. Maybe a pinned post on the front page with the current (updates!!!) standings of the playoffs and schedules for the matches / streams (goes along with the previously mentioned tighter schedule control / admin presence).


Hmm, I guess this is pretty much it, if I have some more ideas, I will update it. Smile

P.s.: double elimination system:


Zwiebi
Newbie
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Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:38 pm

- HummelHeXer
Also it would have needed alot more coverage and news regarding the cup in my opinion. Most of the finals went unnoticed and only the TS quarterfinal can be found on UZ's youtube channel. That's just my view as someone who was uninvolved in these events. To come back to my original post I can sum it up by saying: I very much like the idea, but the execution was unsatisfying. But after all it was the first try so it's far from disaster.

I can only answer this as the coverage is my main job, I was sick, some of the matches were covered and still need to be uploaded. Also the CB NC has a higher priority, people find it more interesting.
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SevenofNine
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Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:39 pm

First of all, I want to congratulate UZL because they took a risk. Not that many competitions staff do that. UZL is actually the competition that try to innovate the most in every way, and that’s a great thing.

So, about the UZ cups. The idea to have best clans participate in a cup is way more interesting than in a league. Because of the eliminations matchs of course : a match is more interesting to play when only the winner stay. So, what make a league more interesting ? To be honest, the only positive point I see (I hope you can give me more to deal with) is that people play more match (at least in theory) so they gain more experience. The “good” team don’t really need experience, they need great and interesting matchs. That’s why the cup system is better for the top teams.

But the real question is : at which level can we consider that a team is experienced enough to prefer playing a cup system than a league one. I’ll take my own case as a reference even if it’s not usually a good method : me and my teammates started UZ as a team, we were totally beginners, the most experienced guy has 4 weeks of experience for our first season : we finish last in the last division. For that point we stayed all as a team, progressed (and never recruited more experienced guys) to finally end after 2 years in a d5 level (more or less). I think that is the good level to play cup more than leagues.

So here is my suggestion : instead of doing 1 cup of 16 teams (so 1 cup for 2 “divisions”), you should do 2 cups of 20 teams (so 5 “divisions” in total). Here are the good points of that system :
- 4 groups of 5 teams in which 2 teams in each groups go to playoffs : that’s a 8 weeks system with 7 matchs played if you reach the final, which mean is correct with the timeline of the rest of the competition.
- With groups of 5 instead of 4, people who don’t go to playoffs play 4 matchs.
- There are some teams who are underestimated in the div making because UZ staff consider only UZ results. With that system, teams who are can prove their level faster, and better clans can go up faster in the div.

Moreover, if things go like that :
Each clan who finish last in their group go one div lower next season.
Each clan who reach the semifinal in 2nd cup go in 1st cup next season.
The firsts three teams in div6 and the first one in d7 go in 2nd cup next season.
Then people will battle with more determination, because they have opportunity to go higher if they do.


Moreover, no matter what the cup system is, you really should promote your important matchs in news, even if it’s more work.

Sasuke
Wannabe
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Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:07 am

Totally agree with the ideas of Sasuke. Four teams in group is too little, must be five at least. Also system with two cups sounds indeed is good.

P.S. I wanted to write the same, but i'm too lazy for it.

KronoZ
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Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:58 pm

After the group stage the transfers should either be locked or limited to 1 or something like that.
Also players who played for a team in the cup shouldn't be allowed to play for another team in the same cup at all.

Aside from that the cup system worked pretty well, I guess.. At least for TS and Bomb. In CTF I had the feeling that the skill discrepancy was too big for the system to work very well. In the end only Div 1 teams were left in the playoffs. I guess that could be fixed with double elimination + a losers/lower bracket. It's kinda sad for teams to only play 3 games, as already mentioned above. It may be more hassle to organize a tournament like that but I guess it would pay off. Maybe make a B cup and let's play 3rd and 4th to decide who stays in the cup/Div 1/2.

Considering the big picture, I always liked UZ having a league system and CB having a cup system. Felt like football with your national leagues and CL 8D

Will add more as I think about stuff 8>
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docDude
Admin
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Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:34 pm

Alias system

I think the alias system is quite strict as it is right now, and i know many people might think this is an irrelevant question, but actually it's not, at least not for me.
As we are not able to change our uz name, and i'm not rly fond of mines, i was thinking that we could take advantage of the auth system in order to use more aliases.

My idea goes more or less like this: we could maintain the actual system (which is having the possibility to use the uz registration name or 1 alias), but we would only be forced to use these either in auth or in the nickname itself. Thus, we would still be recognizable and we could use the aliases we wanted (i usually use them as a status iksdeh). For example:

tag.czybka or nof34r ; auth: aslfdhkljfash

or

tag.ajskfhafsh ; auth: czybka or nof34r (which is the idea i was thinking of at the first place, because in the suggestion above we would have to change our auth in uz every single match, create new accounts, blah blah)

As our auth would still be in urbanzone, it would be easy to track us.

Cheers, Czybka

NoF34R
Newbie
Newbie
 

Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:50 pm

- docDude
After the group stage the transfers should either be locked or limited to 1 or something like that.
Also players who played for a team in the cup shouldn't be allowed to play for another team in the same cup at all.

Aside from that the cup system worked pretty well, I guess.. At least for TS and Bomb. In CTF I had the feeling that the skill discrepancy was too big for the system to work very well. In the end only Div 1 teams were left in the playoffs. I guess that could be fixed with double elimination + a losers/lower bracket. It's kinda sad for teams to only play 3 games, as already mentioned above. It may be more hassle to organize a tournament like that but I guess it would pay off. Maybe make a B cup and let's play 3rd and 4th to decide who stays in the cup/Div 1/2.

Considering the big picture, I always liked UZ having a league system and CB having a cup system. Felt like football with your national leagues and CL 8D

Will add more as I think about stuff 8>


I agree with this, I think you guys could organize 2 cups, 1 featuring 1st and 2nd places of the group and another one featuring 3rd and 4th places.
This way, each team would play a minimum of 4 matches and the A cup would be a playoff, whereas B cup would some sort of playout, but the winner of the B cup could be claimed as the winner of the 2nd div.

The teams eliminated in the 1st round in the B cup should go lower div, or half of them: 4 teams eliminated in the 1st round of the B cup and they play against eachother 1 more match each, which would result in 2 losers who would be demoted for the 3rd league.

This could be a clear system, with more motivated teams. The only catch that i see is that admins would have to bust their asses working.

But overall, i agree with dcdd about uz/cb - its nice to have both a league system and a cup system, we should kill uz's tradition :J

Cheers, Czybka

NoF34R
Newbie
Newbie
 

Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:59 pm

Good point czybka, I'm not saying it will change now, but with 4.2 everyone will be recognizable through their auth name.
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SevenofNine
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Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:07 pm

Seven, moet je die code invullen van je account op urt.info of gwn je naam ?
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Niels
Wannabe
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Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:10 pm

Waar is een patatkram?

HummelHeXer
Newbie
Newbie
 

Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:13 am

- Niels
Seven, moet je die code invullen van je account op urt.info of gwn je naam ?

First of all keep it English here.
Follow these instructions to fill in your auth information. urban-zone.org/index.p...mp;mid=244
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SevenofNine
Admin
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Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:36 pm

- NoF34R

I agree with this, I think you guys could organize 2 cups, 1 featuring 1st and 2nd places of the group and another one featuring 3rd and 4th places.
This way, each team would play a minimum of 4 matches and the A cup would be a playoff, whereas B cup would some sort of playout, but the winner of the B cup could be claimed as the winner of the 2nd div.


I don't think this is practical. The initial idea of the cup was to reduce the amount of dropouts, I doubt any clan would be interested in playing "loser play-offs".
Double elimination may work, last used in ClanBase Summer Cup 2012, but that would extent the season a lot. If you increase the group size to an uneven number like 5, you end up having 5 match weeks in group stage. If you add the double elimination system for play-offs you'd have like a 4 months season.

This season the cup was already 2 weeks overdue, compared to the actual schedule.
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xesya
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Re: Feedback regarding Cup System?

Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:38 pm

I don't see, how a double elimination system would make the season much longer. I means, that instead of 3 matchweek there would be 4. Since the group stages are 3 week long, there would be 7 matchweek in total. With a 1 week break between them, the season would be 8 week long. Since the actual normal season usually gets extended by 3 days for the final matches, the cup season would end 4 days after the normal season.
I don't think the larger amount of matches would make the cup season longer. If the teams can't arrange their matches, it doesn't matter if they only have to play 1 match or 16. They will be late anyways. Also, the brackets are running in parallel, and they only connect for the finals, so there wouldn't be more blocking than there is now.
Also, the larger amount of matches actually only means 8 more match compared to the current system.

Zwiebi
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