As you may or may not know Hemp played in FTW last season in a team on which I was the captain. As TS Head Administrator at the time I was very concerned when I heard that he was banned from CB previously for cheating, and FTW began a demo review on the evidence for that previous ban. It turned out to be a very clean demo and the decision to not uphold the old ban was unanimous, thus he was allowed to play last season.

Now that there is another demo and another ban in Europe we have begun our 2nd review. The preliminary results from the admins that have seen the demo, 3 of whom are considered top 10 players in North America, are leaning towards this demo being clean. I myself have only watched Turnpike, but I did a detailed review of that demo and I will post below my thoughts. If you have some counter-thoughts to add to our discussion that would be helpful, but based on what we've seen so far we think the TP demo is clean and we recommend you take another look based on my notes, or perhaps keep these notes handy for whenever you do a ban review down the road in future seasons.

As for me personally I'll watch the algiers demo eventually, but I likely will not make such detailed notes. I normally do not make such detailed notes but I felt compelled to in this case because I know hemp a little bit from the 15 or so matches/scrims we played together, and I think you guys may have gotten this one wrong.

Warm Regards,
sephy

DEMO NOTES from the opponent:
Turnpike red:

9:21, 9:13 - aiming exactly on guys behind wall or pillar
- 9:21 appears to be normal mouse movement, player reacted after seeing opponent not before.
- 9:13 player saw teammate die to bullets coming from outside pillar doors, only natural to aim where he did in anticipation as he passes by.

7:56 - after blue respawn, hes looking through wall, where are def guys standing, then he shakes his mouse, maybe he realized that its strange what he just did?
- Of note here is that when facing enemy through the wall (of course its obvious where the enemy is but that's not important) he is looking in their general direction but not actually on anybody's body. Even more significant is that he is strafing but not moving mouse, and he is also healing. The timing of the actions are consistent with a player attempting to turn around so as to retreat while still facing the enemy, and in the process running out of mousepad area or finding their wrist in an uncomfortable position and taking half a second to readjust mouse position. This could also explain the "shaking" that Hemp does once behind pillars, showing frustration over his mouse woes. It's also possible that his heal key somehow impeded him during this situation, but that is far less likely.

7:20 - hes going back and he knows that the guy is on the right side of pillars, aiming on him, how could he know that?
- Player slowly crossing to right side is visible at around 7:22 on prior engagement. Very predictable that enemy would appear on right side of back pillars.

5:13 - aiming through fence exactly same as the blue guy is running
- Player is visible (and shot at) prior to going behind fence. Speed and direction clearly discernable. Hemp actually miscalculates a bit and at 5:13 overaims to the left upon rounding the corner. More concerning here is the few bullets put into the fence just as enemy goes out of sight at 5:17-5:16`, but this can be written off to overaim/spam since the enemy was moving fairly fast and those would have been tough bullets to hit.

0:17 - another great and ideal aiming on guy
- Enemy easily heard location knowable just by moaning sounds.

Turnpike blue:

9:48 - y did he look at office, and went there to kill guy going around from reception? he couldnt know that someone is going there
- Waverespawn as Blue attacker on first spawn, 95% of time an enemy is pushing through office to those double doors. Especially true if no serious engagement around Red Flag / Van. No indication that Hemp looked at enemy prior to entering office and reacting.

8:26 - he failed his jump, but instantly aims on guy behind the van. How did he know it so fast and had time to aim?
- Previous spawn he was killed on Red flag and guy pushed in the direction of van. Hemp spawns almost instantly goes into metro sees a teammate standing next to open doors on left side of metro timid to go outside. Teammate may have called out enemy position on Voicecomms, but honestly not necessary because fairly obvious what is happening and where to aim.

!! 7:55 - guy on board is there first time, he didnt jump fast on flag but shows only little, and aims on def guy on board
- Hemp moved uncontested into red flag, vast majority of the time when this happens enemy is either forklift, board, or white car on street. Perfectly normal to check forklift coming around corner which is actually what Hemp did. Then he readjusts aim to guy on board (slightly to left). Nice shooting by Hemp but not an impossible string of events.

!! 6:39 - this time he jumps on flag fast, and immediately goes to kill both! guys healling under the window. How could he knows that both are there and they cant shot right now? He didnt look at board or fork-lift
- On previous spawn hemp fought opponent there and critically wounded him down to 7 percent + bleeding so likely around 1pct. Hemp caught a low spawn and knew guy would still be around mailbox area. Hemp also had a teammate in middle who could have called out the two at mailbox. It's true that he didn't look at board this time, but that's fairly common to not check cautious spots if you are hunting an enemy and your mind is already set on something like that, or on perhaps grabbing flag and handing off to guy in middle. I did notice that on two spawns prior he did check board at 7:16 even though no opponents were on board, which is a small indication of cautious but legit play.

!! 5:35 - how the hell he knows that guy from office stopped and is going back to him? He wanted to go for flag, but he didnt. Just went to Blan3 and knew exactly where hes standing
- Fairly obvious that Blan3 will come back, nobody is going to push middle doors wounded alone when flag is in danger. Plus spawn time was low its an opportunity for blan3 to die and respawn instantly while protecting flag from danger. In retrospect Hemp actually made the wrong decision though, he should have assisted t0t0 who was the actual flag runner in this situation preparing for his grab from van side while hemp was engaging Blan3. Hemp got a little greedy and wanted to finish the kill, something players often do.

5:11 - hes shooting right there where he should, whats more, he hits through this little free space
- Enemy shot first from that position, fairly easy to know where they are and pre-fire / spam it. On second look enemy was actually visible as Hemp crossed, which is the reason the enemy player fired to begin with, i.e. they both had line of sight on each other prior to the 2nd engagement where hemp lands his shots.

4:38 - he couldnt know that def guy is on fork-lift coz its first time on his demo, when someone is there. Hes aiming right there and again shows only a little to kill the guy there
- The fact that it's the first time that the specific player in question is on forklift is irrelevant, because his teammates have been posting up in that area previously. Hemp actually checks board first, then only checks forklift after seeing an enemy. He checked board because of previous experience of guys being at board. Initially in the game hemp checked forklift first, but after seeing the enemy likes board adapted and began checking board, so all of this fits. Additionally, hemp has checked board at times when nobody was there, and most of the times he did not check board/forklift are when he's in a hurry to either kill an enemy in another location that he knows about, or to stop a flag cap, etc... All of this is consistent with smart play, not hacking.

4:18 - strange preshot, hes shooting when Azul is going to jump from there, but he cant see him
- He's actually shooting near white car, because there's almost always somebody there ready to shoot you when you go for flag under those kinds of circumstances. If he had been shooting at the wall where Azul was coming from that'd be one thing, but in truth the pre-fire was far too early and too far from Azul's body / trajectory for it to have anything to do with Azul.

Final Thoughts: Looks pretty clean. Turnpike waverepsawn CTF in general is a very predictable gametype that people have played so much that you can generally know enemy positions based on intuition and spawn times and previous engagements alone. Mere guesses tend to have a 50% chance of being correct. It would be failry hard to definitively prove wallhacking from a TP CTF waverespawn demo unless somebody was blantently looking at somebody through walls and clearly reacting to information that they should not have. Suggest review of Algiers demo at later date.

As you may know i'm not the type of guys that really like cheater and overall cheater like Hiit.
I was helping to ban him from urban france with the previous demo, but that took really more time than one week, and more guys than the Pol team can provide.
I have to say that, like lot of people I'm not convince by this demo.
I want to ban hiit, but for a good reason, and i'm pretty sure that it won't be for a simple wallhax.
Here is my vision of the timer on Algier blue. I havn't worked on the whole half (even if i watched it three time at different timescale). I just tryed to say what i think about the timer. And i'm sure we can find better one.

My vision of algier Blue

9:11 - hes taking the flag and wants to go on camel but suddenly he looks through the wall on guy next to camel, and decides to go through the house
Or he just check camel before going inside. And a bit of communication can explain is choice to the inside.

2:19 - he kills one guy from street and suddenly waits for other one? How could he know it so fast? And hes shooting when he cant see the 2nd guy on street-
Hum i'm sorry but he can actually see him. I mean, i saw him at first time with a demo at timescale 2. And, by the way, he does exactly the same move to kill the first one and the second one : a preshoot (as he can see him) and then the kill.

2:01 - hes looking through the floor on the street, and knows that one guy from there is going to the balcony
Firstly : he heard lot of noise in that direction even if i agree that he aim at him before seeing him, but i'm sure we can se plenty of aim like that on any demo of a player with laser. Ah and maybe one of his mate was shooting "Incomming street" on TS.
Secondly : he can see Blanc3's head.
Thirdly : what is the goal of any attacker on algier red on street? Taking the enemy's balcony! Evrythings seems logical, even if I admit that i wouldn't have such reflex. Ah and he plays with a laser, trying to hide it, is logical.

1:19 - another strange preshooting. Hes shooting there before the guy shows on camel. How could he know that in this time someone is going there?
I have to say that i agree with that timer. In that situation that happen only a few time (there is no one at corner, and the blue team have to wait the red one) he never pre-shoot that way. Of course it could be logical to pre-shoot here and now, but why does he do that for the first time at the end of the half?

Next half coming soon.

Actually, Hiit's demo looks pretty clean.

Maybe you guyz had some others weird timers from others demos which helped you to take your decision, but considering those ones, half of the top players playing here should be banned then.

No offense to anyone, shits happens.

Thats the fun part.

Everyone says its clean, even his enemies (Weedw) said so. Everyone else just says he is an asshole and never even watched his demo.

However, the admins of this league won't respond about the fact that this demo shows NO weird actions.

- Obsidian!

Everyone says its clean, even his enemies (Weedw) said so. Everyone else just says he is an asshole and never even watched his demo.

Actually there's a 3rd group of people to add to that list, the UZ admins who all watched the demos many times and concluded he cheated.

- Obsidian!

However, the admins of this league won't respond about the fact that this demo shows NO weird actions.

They've already responded to this issue, twice, so I'm not sure doing so a 3rd time will achieve anything.

In fact I see no point in this thread at all.

If bans were open to public debate, and the demos available for public review, and anyone was allowed to vote yes or no, at any time before or after the ban was imposed, there would be no point banning anyone, and no point hosting a league in the first place, so I'm not sure what anyone defending this guy thinks is going to happen ??

I'm not a league admin, I don't speak for them, but as webmaster I do see the process by which suspected cheaters are dealt with, and I can assure everyone that this guy was dealt with as thoroughly and as fairly as anyone else. You not agreeing with the outcome doesn't change that fact.

My suggestion to both the player concerned and anyone wishing to defend him is to take it on the chin, and petition the admins for a review when 4.2 is released and an anti-cheat becomes available. Until then accept it and move on, because the alternative is to undermine the league, which exists after all to provide YOU with a place to play your game of choice in as fair and competitive an environment as possible.

Last edited by Kendle on Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

- Obsidian!

However, the admins of this league won't respond about the fact that this demo shows NO weird actions.

*biting my tongue, biting my tongue*

fuck it

Even bromontana said that there were weird actions in his first post. And he was pleading for the guys innocence.

Of course there is some wierd actions on a skilled demo guy. I do wierder things and i'm not skilled at all.
I was part of the UZ staff for a year, so i know how is made the banning system, i disagree on a point: every single voter didn't watch the entire the demo to made their opinion.
I'm still asking for the un-locked of the previous thread, i'll try to make myself clear.

- Kagohan

every single voter didn't watch the entire the demo to made their opinion

That's simply A LIE. What makes it worse is that you know it's a lie because you had access to the thread. There was only one poster who said he did not watch both maps and that person DID NOT VOTE.
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Well the funny thing is that you prefer to respond to the comments but do not respond to the topic of the post.

THe FTW took the time to justify all the timers. That would be interresting if UZ admins could do the same to justify their opinion. That would be a better way to have a sane debate on all this stuff.

Last edited by Apophis on Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

All right eya, not going on that field, as said Apo, you're just anwsering to details (who actually matters). Keep your fairy tell, and just respond to demo analyse, discussed timers.

You're wrong about one point - there is nothing to discuss. You (in general, not personally) can flame, accuse and lie but the fact is that we made an informed and responsible decision based on our best judgment of the material we had and issued a ban. Less or more public, we go through this process of "he/she didn't do it" with every single ban. Like Kendle said, no one would ever get banned if we let people bully us into changing our decisions, no matter what the method.

We did not ban }{iit because we dislike him, we banned him in good faith because we reviewed his demo and found instances of cheat use. That is not a decision anyone makes lightly and therefore not a decision we are going to change because a bunch of people gang up in our forums and try to force us to change it.

What you are doing here is not defense of an innocent person but an attempt at reinstating a banned hacker by using public pressure. If you were truly interested in discussing the demo with us, you would have found more appropriate ways of communicating your interest, like the people who got the answers they were looking for. We are not - and let me repeat that - we are NOT going to turn this into a circus spectacle.

On a personal note, insults and threats to my person, abuse aimed at league staff, and other forms of bullying are not going to get you what you want either.
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I'm wandering who else except the Urban Zone staff did actually see any hack ?

clanbase I guess, since I believe I heard they accepted the ban.
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LOL, is this a joke ?

Just want to say, im wonder how u can see hack in this video?!?( im talking only about this demo ) there is nothing LOL.

Try to have more informations before ban guys like HiiT .. u are gonna say that u are more experienced than me for watching demos ( and in english too ) but really, assume that some player are skilled and don't cheat. it's not the only one ban u fail ..

Shame on urt, hope after christmas some player can prove that they were cleans ..

- Onomie

Shame on urt, hope after christmas some player can prove that they were cleans ..

No they won't. They'll prove that they are clean while playing on the new version.
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