Discussion on hit info when streaming

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Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:30 pm

During the last live stream covering two matches of the first round of the Swiss Format there was quite an uproar due to my decision to set the cvar cg_showbullethits to 0. It is quite clear, that a lot of viewers do want it, so I’m open to change it, but as I will argue below I’m not fully convinced that it is a good idea for the viewing experience. As it mainly comes down to a ratio of pros and cons, the question is if there are pros that I’m either not taking into account or not giving enough weight compared to the cons that I’ll mainly be putting forth in the following.

For the first few arguments, I want to disregard any information added or removed by having cg_showbullethits on or off. Let us only study the visual clearity and appeal with and without. For this I’d like you to compare the two images below, where the first has cg_showbullethits to 0 and the other below has it to 2 (no arguments are changed comparing 0 to 1 instead of 2).


Where the kill information is easily readable “X [weapon] Y” the hit information is a long sentence. Having these two different styles are not very appealing, as the interface does not use a coherent style. Now this could be solved by going back to the classic full sentences for kills, but there’s no way I’m going to do that, as that is certainly not making for a better viewing experience. A better solution, which would require changes to the game would be a shortened version for hits, like “-> X [shortest limb-descriptor] damage%”.

More importantly than the earlier stuff when disregarding information given or taken away, when you have cg_showbullethits on you end up with the same area of the screen with two relatively disjunct responsibilities: Showing current players hits on/from other players + Showing global kills. That does not lend itself to very easily understandable interface.

On that note of disjunct responsibilities, you might also ask yourself, if the cg_showbullethits isn’t more just treating the symptom rather than a deeper problem in the viewer’s interface? The information of damage and more should in my opinion be showed elsewhere, such as total health of all players in the lower right.

While we begin moving into taking account to the information given by cg_showbullethits we get to one of my main reasons not to turn it on. The most important thing to realize, is that there’s only so much space on the screen on which you can put information, and after some amount of time, some information is going to compete for space with another piece of information. This is specifically with cg_showbullethits already the case, since it directly competes for the four lines at the upper left with the kill-log.
A very rough test in CTF gave me a 28 kills in 2 minutes, meaning that a kill happened roughly every fourth second, except for the fact that kills in wave-based CTF very much come in waves of two or three to hit the timer. Should you turn on cg_showbullethits you will end up missing kills, which might possibly be more important to map control than the specificities of the current players hits. In CTF it will very much result in an unreadable mess in the upper left, which is so cluttered that it looses all value.
In TS on the other hand, we only have 10 players, not respawning and a generally much slower engagement speed. So, while the argument does not apply as strongly, you do still have to keep in mind, that engagements are usually coordinated in a way, such that more people are being under fire at once. Simultaneously TS very much has a lot of nothing and then a hectic engagement, meaning that all kills are happening very much in a very short time frame.

Another problem I see, is that you as a viewer of the live stream are switching views all the time and have to keep track of the movement of possibly ten people at once, but only being able to do so through their POV. That is not something to disregard lightly. So getting information of the hits of the current player (which as argued later explains players choices and more) are not going to be of huge value, when you switch quickly over to another player on the other side of the map.

With so many arguments against put forth already does not mean, that the information given does not have value. Let us disregard the fact, that it is competing for space with the kills and with itself, and only focus on the information that we’re given. On a most basic level, it is a confirmation of the current player watched actually getting a hit, and this information also being a bit more specific than just the hitsound, which I also have turned on for the stream. On a higher level, the players choices, such as hunting down a player or staying back, are primarily done based on the hit information, where they get a good idea of the total amount of health and their ability to move.

But, there’s one more argument against it, which also in some ways nullifies the one pro I just wrote. This information, especially when used to argue for the choices of players, are only used by a higher level of viewers. But, there’s one thing you have to realize as to what one of my goals are with the stream. My stream is not only for the expert and the master-analyzer, hell if it was, why would I attempt to call GG as late as possible in the game and always try and keep the hype up? The expert does already see it being won after the first few minutes most likely, but I’m also trying to make it appealing to casual viewers and even non-UrT players. The game will at this size primarily get exposure through new releases and mouth-to-mouth, but there’s absolutely no reason also to not attempt making the content created as friendly to casual viewers and people who never played the game. And having a coherent, easily readable and also most importantly not overwhelming interface is one way of obtaining exactly this.


With that we’ve reached the end of my arguments, where I personally find the cons outweighing the pros. The following are invalid arguments put forth from people in chat, though I have changed them here to remove profanity and unecessary immaturity. I am just outright already addressing them, as I just don’t care to read these again here.

- SevenofNine has hit info
This is a argumentum ad verecundiam. Just because SevenofNine does it, does not mean that that is the best viewing experience. If you want a concrete counter-example very close to the current topic, SevenofNine still uses the old, long and unreadable kill messages. Now, there’s absolutely no argument that having “X got a lead enema from Y’s retro m4” is more readable and appealing than “Y [m4] X”.

- You don’t play with hit information? (You noob)
This is a reductio ad absurdum, and I don’t see any reason why I need to further address this, as we’re talking about the viewing experience and not the playing experience.

- You just don’t understand
This is a argumentum ad hominem, and the wording here is very different from the use in chat, but it all comes down to trying to discredit me as a person rather than actually addressing my arguments. If you cannot bring forth anything that is not an insult or a “gotcha” I don’t even care to listen.


These are all my arguments for why the cg_showbullethits does more harm than good from a viewing perspective. I’d love to hear what you have to say.




But, before I end this post, I do want to give a comment on how certain viewers handled the disagreement during the livestream.

Very quickly after I did not immediately adhere to their view but instead was arguing against them, few polish players began in chat to switch over to polish to insult me behind my back, but effectively (and clearly on purpose) still right in front of my nose. Among the many messages for more than an hour, which all are extremely rude, we have the various gems of “ignorancki fiucie” and “co to za jebany idiota”, both of which you don’t really even need a translation to understand what was said.

Simultaneously with the massive amounts of comments in chat, which is appropriate (at least if it was kept at a proper level) I also was messaged on both Discord and IRC. This even escalated to someone getting a player of the current match to spam me in-game to turn on the hit information. Since everyone starting the message-flood through the other channels were there during the first discussion on stream and through chat, there’s no way you can argue that they thought I just hadn’t noticed their desire. It is very clear, that the whole point was to spam me so hard, that I in the end would crumble under the pressure and turn on the hit information, just to get it stop. There’s no way around calling this anything but just peer pressure.

There is absolutely no way, that this behaviour is anything that I want to encourage or even want to have anywhere in my chat or around me, as it is absolutely disrespectful, childish and outright disgusting. To be honest, due to that behaviour, I more feel inclined to leave showbullethits off at this point just to spite them and to not to promote such behaviour. So, I hope there can be some damn mature and convincing argumentation done in the following, or I’ll just leave it as is.

Ikslorin
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Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:14 am

- Who's actually going to read this lmao.

This is argumentum ad speakinum latinum soundum smarterum. People are used to the old hit info and it's highly logical to leave it that way instead of shoving SID's ugly abomination down our throats. And considering that people still want to watch clanwars despite how ugly this game is, I don't think that a kill log 2 centimeters shorter than the default one will make it any better. Either cave in and listen to viewers like a real democrat, or use argumentum ad growum ballsum and stand your ground, since it's your stream and you can do whatever the fuck you want there.

Pozdro kjt, ładny ból dupy XD

szejdi
Chatterbox
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Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:38 am

I couldnt care less about the hitting info but please man, higher the gamma, its way too dark. Look at those screens lmfao

ex0tic-
Newbie
Newbie
 

Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:50 pm

I won't read that.

gg

Chiko
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Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:29 pm

Dr;tl hit info ftw

usuń konto

Dziękuję za pozdrowienia szejdi, beka ze ma buldupy bo jakiś Polaczek go zwyzywal na jego zenujacym streamie xd
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odpalam air maxy, wwa na mnie patrzy- to reprezentować mam zaszczyt

KJT.
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Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:14 pm

- Ikslorin
Where the kill information is easily readable “X [weapon] Y” the hit information is a long sentence. Having these two different styles are not very appealing, as the interface does not use a coherent style. Now this could be solved by going back to the classic full sentences for kills, but there’s no way I’m going to do that, as that is certainly not making for a better viewing experience. A better solution, which would require changes to the game would be a shortened version for hits, like “-> X [shortest limb-descriptor] damage%”.

I don't think anybody else is bothered by the disparity of length between each line.

- Ikslorin
More importantly than the earlier stuff when disregarding information given or taken away, when you have cg_showbullethits on you end up with the same area of the screen with two relatively disjunct responsibilities: Showing current players hits on/from other players + Showing global kills. That does not lend itself to very easily understandable interface.

The aforementioned difference in styles should make it easy for the average viewer to distinguish between kills and hitting info.

- Ikslorin
Should you turn on cg_showbullethits you will end up missing kills, which might possibly be more important to map control than the specificities of the current players hits.
In TS on the other hand, we only have 10 players, not respawning and a generally much slower engagement speed. So, while the argument does not apply as strongly, you do still have to keep in mind, that engagements are usually coordinated in a way, such that more people are being under fire at once. Simultaneously TS very much has a lot of nothing and then a hectic engagement, meaning that all kills are happening very much in a very short time frame.

Alive players are highlighted on the mini scoreboard, so it doesn't really matter.

- Ikslorin
On a most basic level, it is a confirmation of the current player watched actually getting a hit, and this information also being a bit more specific than just the hitsound, which I also have turned on for the stream. On a higher level, the players choices, such as hunting down a player or staying back, are primarily done based on the hit information, where they get a good idea of the total amount of health and their ability to move.

I believe you're grossly underestimating the importance of the results that that information brings to; a big part of this game revolves around gaining the upper hand and capitalizing on it, and how much damage you dealt to your opponent constitutes a large factor in that. As you mentioned, it can also help understand the thought process behind a player's actions.

- Ikslorin
But, there’s one more argument against it, which also in some ways nullifies the one pro I just wrote. This information, especially when used to argue for the choices of players, are only used by a higher level of viewers. But, there’s one thing you have to realize as to what one of my goals are with the stream. My stream is not only for the expert and the master-analyzer, hell if it was, why would I attempt to call GG as late as possible in the game and always try and keep the hype up? The expert does already see it being won after the first few minutes most likely, but I’m also trying to make it appealing to casual viewers and even non-UrT players. The game will at this size primarily get exposure through new releases and mouth-to-mouth, but there’s absolutely no reason also to not attempt making the content created as friendly to casual viewers and people who never played the game. And having a coherent, easily readable and also most importantly not overwhelming interface is one way of obtaining exactly this.

I'm pretty sure if I were new to this game I would want to know whether hitting a player in the head or in the legs made a difference, and consequently how much damage it dealt.

- Ikslorin
- SevenofNine has hit info
This is a argumentum ad verecundiam
- You don’t play with hit information? (You noob)
This is a reductio ad absurdum
- You just don’t understand
This is a argumentum ad hominem

Don't do this, all it does is make you look extremely patronizing for no good reason.

I don't think turning on hitting information would be as detrimental to the viewing experience as you make it out to be, especially when it's being explicitly requested by the large majority of the people watching the stream.

mvt-
Regular
Regular
 

Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:35 pm

[quote="ex0tic-"]I couldnt care less about the hitting info but please man, higher the gamma, its way too dark. Look at those screens lmfao[/quote]

Higher the gamma . nice englando negro

LinCeX
Wannabe
Wannabe
 

Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:52 pm

- LinCeX
- ex0tic-
I couldnt care less about the hitting info but please man, higher the gamma, its way too dark. Look at those screens lmfao


Higher the gamma . nice englando negro


good quote!

Chiko
Newbie
Newbie
 

Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:42 pm

- Chiko

I won't read that.

I can attempt to make the following list as a TL;DR, but that would mean that nuances would get lost, which could skew your argument one way or the other.
- Con: Death messages and hit information are non-similar in style, which is visually unappealing
- Con: One area of the screen gives you two different types of information, which is not focused
- Con: Hit info competes with death messages for space, the first drowning out the second.
- Pro: It shows you the information, on which the player judges the situation.
- Con: Viewers keep track of up to ten people, so the information can quickly get unimportant when switching PoV.
- Con: That information is mainly of value for expert viewers, yet not of importance to casual and non-UrT players, for which I also want to make it watchable.

- ex0tic-

I couldnt care less about the hitting info but please man, higher the gamma, its way too dark.

Now that you mention it, that is very true and should be fixed. I currently got it at 1.0, but I can probably crank it up a bit without making the image look flat and unappealing.

- mvt-

I don't think anybody else is bothered by the disparity of length between each line.

It’s less the difference in length, but more the difference in style. But, It’s very possibly just me nitpicking at the UI and getting upset at a lack of consistency. Also having full sentences written out as part of the UI makes the game look extremely outdated.

- mvt-

The aforementioned difference in styles should make it easy for the average viewer to distinguish between kills and hitting info.

While that is a workaround, that does not solve the deeper issue.

- mvt-

Alive players are highlighted on the mini scoreboard, so it doesn't really matter.

Is it possible to turn off the death messages, to force you to watch the mini scoreboard and not get accustomed to be able to read it at the upper left? That would mean, that you as a viewer would be trained (relatively quickly) to look where the information is always to get, such that in situation where the kill messages would have been drowned out, you still don’t get confused and irritated because you cannot read what you want.

Also, remember that the scoreboard as a spectator is bugged quite often showing people as alive, making that an inconsistent source of information.

I suppose you could also increase the amount of lines and thereby space to which the output can go, but then more of the screen area will be filled with information, minimizing the amount of space left for the game itself.

- mvt-

I believe you're grossly underestimating the importance of the results that that information brings to; a big part of this game revolves around gaining the upper hand and capitalizing on it, and how much damage you dealt to your opponent constitutes a large factor in that. As you mentioned, it can also help understand the thought process behind a player's actions.

I must be, there’s no doubt about that. That is the main reason I started this thread and its counterpart on the urban terror forums, to give the possibility for actually changing my view. It’s wonderful you answered to this thread, mv, since I based this on your comment in chat.

It’s not like I don’t want to have it shown, but the place in which it is has just too many problems. There just must be a better way to show it though… What about the name and healthbars from the free-roam view integrated directly into first person? Now, that would make it look really good.

Or maybe even simpler have the hit information replace the ingame-chat instead.

- mvt-

I'm pretty sure if I were new to this game I would want to know whether hitting a player in the head or in the legs made a difference, and consequently how much damage it dealt.

As a new viewer you would try to catch up on the specificities of the game compared to others, especially the high speed nature of it. Also, if you have played shooters before, you most likely will have a preconception of the amount of damage being varied based on the part of the body hit.

Something like the hard numbers of damage, is way to specific information to be useful, especially at the high frequency of new messages at the top left. As an example I’ve watched StarCraft II for years, which is in my opinion the game with the best viewer experience, yet I don’t give a damn about the specific numbers.

As a test, I send the same image as on the post to a friend of mine having a history in broadcasting StarCraft II. I did it without any information put together with the image, to not colour his opinion. He claimed that the feature on or off would be dependant on the game. If it was slow, then yes, but if it was as fast as Counter Strike (which is nothing in speed compared to Urban Terror) he would think he’d drown in it.

Showing the damage is important, but there must be a better way that we can show it rather than verbose text at the upper left.

- mvt-

Don't do this, all it does is make you look extremely patronizing for no good reason.

Yes, that was quite a misstep. I actually was not able to find a good english way of writing “Reductio ad absurdum”, so I instead just translated the two others “Appeal to authority” and “Attacking the person rather than the argument” to Latin instead for consistency. I will not deny though, that I as a human being felt a little good writing it that way though. Very Happy

- mvt-

I don't think turning on hitting information would be as detrimental to the viewing experience as you make it out to be, especially when it's being explicitly requested by the large majority of the people watching the stream.

With 40 viewers and roughly ten people asking for turning on hit information, that is certainly a substantial amount of viewers, that’s true. Even if these estimates are wrong, and it is the large majority, or even everyone, question still is, if they actually know what will result in the best endproduct, or just what they want personally? Only one viewer had not played the game at a higher level and didn’t know the format, while all others were experts, who really just want all the information you can get, and presented in exactly the same way that they are used to from playing. If I can go for a little slippery-slope/strawman, then what they really want is just GTV on twitch. 110 field of view, verbose information, and some of them probably even want no commentary at all. Does that give you the best end-product in the end? For them arguably, but that is not the direction I want the content to go, and what I think is better in general.

I’m also currently in the dilemma, that if I actually turn hit information on, I will also thereby reward the behaviour of the various people being overly aggressive and disrespectful. What then the next time they want something changed, which I also don’t believe will result in a better end product? Will I then again have to deal with personal insults thrown at me from all angles?

Last edited by Ikslorin on Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:20 am; edited 2 times in total

Ikslorin
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Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:40 pm

- Chiko
- LinCeX
- ex0tic-
I couldnt care less about the hitting info but please man, higher the gamma, its way too dark. Look at those screens lmfao


Higher the gamma . nice englando negro


good quote!



LinCeX
Wannabe
Wannabe
 

Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:09 am

I've read pretty much everything, and I must say I can't disagree with what you said Ikslo, but yet, I remain thinking that I would like to see hits if I was watching a stream, doesn't matter what kind of stream, could be public, pickup, pcw, cw or gtv, I'd want to see the hits.

My argument would have been that, as a viewer, you want to know what is exactly going on in the game, you see two people fighting, you see them hitting eachother, BUT you don't know how many hits are given, it could be 2X17 which will basically have a non existant importance in the round, or it could be 2x29 or 1x29 + 1x51 which SHOULD offer the opportunity (especially in the nowadays "meta") for the team to do a move and finish what their teammate started.

Anyway, you got a very good point about the new players which actually made me think that my argument was futile, but no, I still think new players would want to know too. They'll be interested in what they see first anyway which is the gameplay, the POV, etc, then, as they get interested in the game, they'll understand infos and like it, imho.

Don't have much more to say tho! Razz

Zmbiie
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Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:13 pm

Ikso

"Yes, that was quite a misstep. It actually with me not being able to find a good english way of writing “Reductio ad absurdum”, so I instead just translated the two others “Appeal to authority” and “Attacking the person rather than the argument” to Latin instead for consistency. I will not deny though, that I as a human being felt a little good writing it that way though. Very Happy"

If it felt good Man do the whole shoutcast in Latin next round , that would be impressive Razz

Pensioner
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Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:35 pm

Zmb makes good points. You gotta accomodate yourself to experienced viewers.

I think instead of displaying the damages given/received you could just turn on the hit sound. Thats what they do in quakelive broadcasts and it works well.
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Brainie
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Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:18 am

All true,

But if I am reading the post right Ikslorin is trying to cater for a broader audiance and encourage new people to view and maybe participate in the game. Correct me if I am wrong. A friend of mine will ;). As noobs they will have all on keeping up up with the frantic pace of you Pros and to some extent it really does not show the game in its true form. Do not get me wrong as an experienced player I love to see your skills. But the less they have to concentrate on maybe better. Maku hits Sze in the but means sweet Fa too a person whos first view is the game on youtube or Twitch. For the guys in chat and regulars I get your opinion. Bring them to the fold before the game dies.

Pens.

Pensioner
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Re: Discussion on hit info when streaming

Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:37 pm

You're wrong Pens.


...you meant me, right? You're actually somewhat right, I just haven't disagreed with anyone for like 2 days.

szejdi
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